01:38 - Sylvia (Host)
Hello everyone and welcome back to episode 34 of the Serve First, sell Later Marketing Podcast, and in this episode, I'm super excited to speak with Joanne Law, who's a prominent figure in the field of mediation and dispute resolution in Australia.
01:55
She's also the director of Mediation Institute, which offers dispute resolution training, and is actually an award-winning provider of accessible, quality training all throughout Australia, and Joanne is a registered family dispute resolution practitioner and a nationally accredited mediator from Australia, she has really dedicated her career to preventing violence and really providing support for the non-adversarial resolution of disputes through both mediation and training.
02:30
Anyway, you'll definitely want to listen into my conversation with Joanne, as she shares so many awesome ideas on how to grow your professional practice. Welcome, joanne, so honored to have you on the show today. I know that you are a really highly respected dispute resolution practitioner and an industry leader in Australia, and I know that you are very passionate about using mediation to promote respectful and peaceful resolution of disagreements, and so I thank you for doing what you do, because it's such an important role. And I also know that you've enjoyed much success in growing not only your mediation practice but being the founder of the Mediation Institute, where you and your team teach dispute resolution skills and other types of training, and I know that they can also get accredited. So I'd love for you to share with our audience and our listeners today a little bit about your background and how you first got started in the field.
03:32 - Joanne (Guest)
Absolutely, and thank you so much for the opportunity to have a chat. It's always such a pleasure to speak with you. My background is different to a lot of mediators. It's more in process improvement. I'm a neuro-linguistic programming master practitioner. I was working with coaching and mentoring people and then I met my current partner, who's a family lawyer, which really gave me a deep introduction to what's going on in the family law system in particular, which led to my passion for mediation and trying to help people to sort things out rather than going to a court in the circumstances.
04:15 - Sylvia (Host)
Awesome, and I know that you also started the Mediation Institute as well, so was that part and parcel of this journey, or how did that get started?
04:24 - Joanne (Guest)
So was that part and parcel of this journey, or how did that get started? So once I got introduced to mediation and developed a real passion for empowering people to sort their own problems out rather than relying on court, I thought, oh well, I'll need to train to become a mediator. However, I also had a background in training and I was frankly, unimpressed by my training. It was great, the people were great. It's really more around the structure and design of the training. So I thought, well, I'll just set up this little niche training business for people who can't or don't want to go to a, you know, in-person group intensive group training. My idea was that it would be for people in regional and remote areas most likely that would use it, you know, where they've got family or other responsibilities where they just couldn't travel and do it. For basic mediation training at the time, the only option was a five-day course, so it's an online, so it was in-person a five-day course, so it's an online, so it was in person a five-day course. However, mediation's a skill. It's not, you know, and I just don't think humans could actually develop a skill in that way. Like we need repetition, practice and, I think, perhaps a little bit of time to really integrate what we're learning.
05:50
So we set up Mediation to be a fully online training. So theory flipped learning, which is a model of teaching people the theory first and then the human interaction to integrate and develop the skills. So there's there's lots of role plays, but online, so via video. Um, we set up over 10 years ago now and and we were chugging along quite nicely and then covid came. The world completely changed. So not just the necessity of online training, because in-person wasn't possible. In Australia we took a very protective approach where we tried to prevent spread and we had lots of lockdowns and all sorts of efforts to prevent people dying. So, yeah, it had a huge impact on the training industry because group in-person just wasn't possible for an extended period of time. People that said we're not going back to the office, we're not going to be.
07:02 - Sylvia (Host)
Change how the whole world works.
07:05 - Joanne (Guest)
Absolutely, and for clients. I never really wanted to go and sit in a room with this person that they're in conflict with, so the acceptance for clients or online mediation, has grown as well. So, yeah, the world's changed and we were really poised because of the passion I've got for accessibility and making, I suppose, making high quality training available for anyone as long as they've got access to the internet.
07:37 - Sylvia (Host)
Right, right, awesome. So, in terms of growth, I know that you've enjoyed lots of success in that area. What kind of advice, if we're looking at growth strategies for mediators in particular, or any legal or financial professional? What are some of the top ones that you would recommend and why?
07:59 - Joanne (Guest)
The first one is to be very, very client focused. So think about the needs of your clients is to be very, very client focused. So think about the needs of your clients. That's really why we were positioned where we were and why we continue to grow both. So what do your clients need, rather than looking at what's convenient for you and your processes? That's a really important one. And then the next one is networks. Like you can't be successful in this world unless you're connected to others who recognize what you're trying to do and support you. So for lawyers, for mediators, it really is a referral business, ideally referrals from other clients and from other professionals have used your services. However, when you're starting out, it seems like there's this massive barrier to gaining entry to the sector because it seems like everybody's already got you know, the people that they trust and refer. So it's classic marketing People do business with people they know, like and trust.
09:06 - Sylvia (Host)
So true yeah.
09:07 - Joanne (Guest)
It's a fundamental truth, because we don't want to risk sending our client to someone who we don't know. So when you're starting out, I think the critical thing is building your profile, getting comfortable with promoting yourself, which I found for a lot of our students and members is something they're really uncomfortable with.
09:34 - Sylvia (Host)
So true, yeah, and yeah. So let's unpack that a little bit. So I think I think, even if we look at the, the novice mediator or the novice professional coming into any field, and even the most experienced ones that we work with as well, we see it in them like that is an issue the fear of self-promotion. So talk to me a little bit about how do you, you know, coach your students about the fear of self-promotion.
10:08 - Joanne (Guest)
I really encourage people to think about your background, think about where you've come from, think about all the things that you know. So you're adding mediation as a skill set, as a way of practicing, a way of working with people. But whether you've come from the mining industry, or whether you've come from adversarial legal systems or your background is in counselling or psychology, you know a lot of stuff. Don't think you have to close the door on that. So I guess what I constantly encourage people don't be a commodity, be yourself, be unique. Don't try, think that you have to copy other people in the way that you present yourself or promote yourself, because from a marketing point of view, in this era where people aren't looking for the glossy, they're looking for the reality, they're looking for authenticity. So I encourage people to accentuate what they know, but be authentic. Does that make sense?
11:22 - Sylvia (Host)
Absolutely yeah, and I think the closer people are to their authenticity, the more comfortable they become in promoting themselves.
11:31 - Joanne (Guest)
Yeah, there's no hard work in being yourself.
11:34 - Sylvia (Host)
Right.
11:35 - Joanne (Guest)
We do that with our media.
11:37
So ever, and so it's when we're trying to hold up a front to be what we're not Right. I encourage people to get straight out there talking about mediation being visible. You know, you've been through the training, whether it's basic mediation training or the graduate diploma, family law mediators. You know more than the general public. You know a lot more than the general public and if you get out there talking about it rather than just knowing it in your head, you'll actually realise oh wow, I actually know a lot more than these people. So it's really helpful.
12:17
For example, I've got a small not-for-profit that we founded to help provide practice hours for our students and we've got a project called Interact Community Dispute Resolution Service. So that's for our nationally accredited mediators to provide services through the not-for-profit to build their skills. It's a co-mediation model so they can work with more experienced mediators and build their skills. And one of the things that we've designed there is what we call in conflict management first aid workshop. So it's a little workshop where our team can go out to community organisations and provide them with a bit of conflict intelligence and strategies for dealing with conflict situations and some knowledge about mediation and when to call in the professionals situations and some knowledge about mediation and when to call in the professionals. So, and it's been very helpful for our team and I encourage anyone who's a mediator you know go and connect with organisations in your community and be the person they pick up the phone to.
13:31 - Sylvia (Host)
Yes, yeah, I love that, and we'll put a link for that in the show notes too, so if anyone wants to check that out. So this organization, this not-for-profit that you've made reference to, is, is a way of allowing some of these newbie mediators to kind of get out there and start using their skills.
13:50 - Joanne (Guest)
Very much so but also to deepen their connections with each other, because that's another encouragement that I have for professionals of all sorts Keep in touch with your colleagues.
14:06
Don't just see people as competition, because if you're not going to be a commodity, if you're going to kind of really look at who are the who are the types of clients that you want to work with, who are the clients that you've got, um, you know, extra skills and knowledge that can be beneficial, for there's a whole lot of other clients that you don't need to work with and you might be able to refer to colleague.
14:29
There might be situations, um, in Australia we've got a national accreditation system for mediators and one of the ethical obligations is not to work outside your competence, and so there may be situations that you need to pull in a colleague for a co-mediation or you need to get some guidance. So if you don't know anyone, because you see training everyone like the competition and keep away from me, you don't have that option, you don't have that support. Yeah, there's not enough conflict to go around If we could just educate people. You know there's not adversarial ways to deal with it, and we need to educate people because when you're in conflict. You don't feel like there's any possible way for this to be resolved without someone coming in and making a decision in your favor.
15:19 - Sylvia (Host)
Yes, yeah, that makes sense. So, on the topic of referral partnerships, if we were to unpack that a little bit for either the mediator who could be new to the game, or an experienced mediator who's just looking to build those referral partnerships, where to find them and how to have truly successful relationships are so important and I know that that's a challenge for a lot of mediators to develop those relationships. Any advice in that area that you would provide Persistence?
15:56 - Joanne (Guest)
You're going to meet a lot of people that either don't get it you know you don't gel with. When you're a new mediator, you're not going to be very busy with your mediation practice. It takes time to build, and let's be realistic about that. To build and let's be realistic about that so meetings, connecting with people, having conversations, finding out where their needs are, keeping in mind the Swiss cheese model. There's a model that's used in process improvement or problem solving, that you know an issue can't occur.
16:31
You know there's all these countermeasures, but a little bit. There's always holes in it. So they're, you know, center-related, hold line up and then the opportunity arises. So the same thing applies when you're trying to break into a market. You know people might say, oh no, I've got others that we referred to and all of that, and that's fine, be gracious.
16:49
But if you think that there's a mix, can I leave you some information about my services, just in case at some point you need it and sooner or later they're going to have the other people they refer to are going to be busy, they're going to be on holidays, something's going to happen, and they say, oh, you know what a folder on the shelf from this person or I've got you know some.
17:11
They're on your mailing list and you're sending out once a month and some valuable information. You know whatever way feels most appropriate for you and your type of practice, but when they need you which isn't going to be the day you decided you're going to have a conversation with them, most likely, and it takes time. Yeah, they know how to find you. So it comes back to being visible, and don't just think that you need to connect with the principal of the firm. It may be the practice manager is the person that you need to develop a relationship with, because the principal might say, get me a mediator or get me a panel of mediators, but if the practice manager went, oh no, this person, they seem very good, I'll put them in the middle.
17:58 - Sylvia (Host)
So interesting. So when we're looking at that, I mean in terms of connections and finding these people, I know LinkedIn is an amazing resource which I'm sure you probably refer to your students to connect with other referral partners.
18:12 - Joanne (Guest)
Absolutely. Yeah, it's absolutely critical because I would say at least the majority of people, if they're meeting someone new, they're going to go to LinkedIn and check. I know I certainly do, I always will. If I'm considering collaborating with someone or whatever, I will go to LinkedIn. Do they have a, a presence? Are they putting out material or are they? You know they've got five connections and and they've not done anything. So I know they're not serious about building their business because you know you're not. So be findable. You know people cannot work with you if they can't find you and and there's so many people trying to be found.
18:52 - Sylvia (Host)
So we talked a little bit about LinkedIn, associations and professional organizations to align yourself with, or memberships that you can become part of, so that you can be found online, because we live in an online world and if you can't be found online, it'll be increasingly difficult for people to want to work with you. So I think that that's another big factor is try to find those online channels, as you've indicated so that you're more visible and you can be more easily found.
19:25 - Joanne (Guest)
Yeah, I think we need to think about our business like a lake and lots of rivers running into it. So if you've got, you know, if you're relying on just one source, one way of clients coming to you, so maybe you're already well-established and you've got some good referral partners. But if something happens, if something changes to them, you're suddenly like where's my work coming from? It's dried up. You know things have changed. So if we can have a number of ways that clients come to them, you're suddenly like where's my word coming from? It's dried up. You know things have changed. So if we can have a number of ways that clients come to us, it means that you've got a much more reliable and sustainable business.
20:02 - Sylvia (Host)
I love that. I love that analogy that you've just given, like have multiple streams coming in so that people can find you through these different channels, and I think that you're absolutely right. It's so important to have the different ways to market yourself, both online and in person, so that you can be found. Yeah, which kind of takes me to sorry. Did you want to add something to that?
20:25 - Joanne (Guest)
Yeah, I just wanted to say be a little bit business-like about your business. So you know, know what your, what your rate of closing, so you know how many referrals do you need for a client. So with with Interact we're pretty specialised Our rate is around the 50% at the moment. For others maybe for a new mediator starting out the conversation you have to get someone to commit mightn't be as strong, so it might be only a 25%. So for every four people you talk to, one becomes a client. Know what that is? That's going to tell you how many inquiries you need to generate in order to get the number of clients that you need for your business to be at a sustainable level, and it's always a lot more than what we think, isn't it?
21:15 - Sylvia (Host)
Like you know people think, oh, I just have two referrals coming in, that'll be great. I'll be able to, you know, make that happen. And the reality is, as you said, multiple streams coming in through different avenues and working them all, but, I think, working them consistently. If you're going to commit to any of these channels, just commit to them to doing the work consistently, because as one dries up, the other one will be flowing in, so to speak, right, so that you can have more of that coming in.
21:43 - Joanne (Guest)
Yeah, and people ask do I need to be on Instagram and Facebook and LinkedIn? And you know every new thing that comes? Not necessarily, but perhaps LinkedIn professional referrals, which are much more valuable because you know they are going to again and again send people. So you know, maybe each referral partner is only sending one or two clients your way each month. So thinking about how many clients you need, how many really good quality referrals Some might be every six months that they send someone. Facebook, I think, tends to be more the individual, although a lot of community organizations and that seem to be very active there as well. So you know, facebook, it may be getting involved in some of the groups and being seen as a resource.
22:33 - Sylvia (Host)
So one thing that we like to talk a lot about is speaking on stages and spreading your message at scale, and so I'd love to get your opinion on. I know that you are a sought out speaker and you speak on so many stages and being located in Australia and spreading your message worldwide. You speak on a lot of online stages. Any advice to people listening here? Stages any advice to people listening here. What is the best way to do that, would you say, or how to get successful at speaking on online stages and getting booked?
23:03 - Joanne (Guest)
as a speaker.
23:05
So get used to speaking. Get used to speaking. If it's something that you're not familiar, just create your own. These days, it's the easiest possible thing to create your own platform to put out your message. You can do like we're doing here a podcast. You can do videos out and put them on YouTube. So get used to there. People will be able to see you and get a feel for you.
23:30
But there's lots of opportunities conferences Within our sector. There's the National Mediation Conference that comes up every two years. The next one is going to be in Sydney, so it's very accessible. It's a conference that I really support. I was a director on that board, but I just found it was sort of conflicting with all the very many roles that I've got. So I've stepped back out as a director and now I'm just a supporter and a member of the the National Mediation Conference.
23:59
There's other ones, but also think a bit laterally. I can't remind mediators enough that we really need to educate people about what we do when to call us in. So if you've got a background in mining, go to the mining conference and do a presentation there, put a pitch, something there. If you've got a website, put up on your website the types of things that you can speak about, so that you know if people are looking at you checking out and say, well, we could get them as a speaker for our annual conference. You know, speaking at that sort of thing can be valuable. Do some training. If you don't know how to do something. Find out how and learn. You know.
24:48 - Sylvia (Host)
Found advice, Joanne.
24:50 - Joanne (Guest)
Nobody came out of the womb as a professional speaker.
24:56 - Sylvia (Host)
You know and I think people need to understand that you don't have to be a professional speaker. And I think people need to understand that you don't have to be a professional speaker Like you just need to get out there and start speaking and spreading the word about what it is you want to tell people like, make people aware of mediation, and when we lead with education first, I think all that fear of speaking on stages or being professional or having the right words and saying with right intonation it just goes out the window because at the end of the day, it's just being your authentic self and just being really focused on educating first.
25:32 - Joanne (Guest)
Yeah, Think about who you're trying to serve, what value you're trying to bring the people you're trying to save from wasting all of their money and ending up with an outcome that's not going to actually give them what they're trying to achieve.
25:45
Think of the people if you're in workplace mediation the emotional trauma that people go through when they get caught up in that conflict, end up leaving their work, but sometimes with scars that last the rest of their life. It's important work that we do. And by being reluctant because you don't like the way you look, you don't like the way you sound I'm far from a beauty queen and you're lucky it's a podcast and I don't really like my voice, but and I'm going to let that stop me getting my message out because it's important um, so, if you're clear on what you're trying to achieve from your business and I've never met a mediator yet who is just doing mediation because they want to make money there's easier ways. If you just want to make money, we need to make money to have a sustainable business and there's no shame in that.
26:45
There should not be any soever, in that we are worth being paid for our work. But it also has a greater purpose, a greater benefit that can ripple out from that brief interaction that we have with people.
27:00 - Sylvia (Host)
So, in terms of what's happening in the mediation space, are there any trends that you're seeing from the perspective of marketing, or growing a mediation practice that you think should be talked about in this episode?
27:16 - Joanne (Guest)
There are and, as I said, I'm really strongly encouraged collaboration and forming referral partnerships, but we do need to keep in mind our ethical obligations. So there's actually a worrying trend in places for setting up one-stop shop type arrangement, where you know mediation, the lawyers are their part of and straight away signing up like a 24-hour divorce negotiations, and I'm getting some issues where potentially, people are feeling like they haven't been given procedural fairness or the opportunity to really get the independent advice that they might need. I'm a director of the Mediator Standards Board, which recently just changed its name to the Australian Mediator and accreditation standards, mdrac, and we've had a recent change in the standards. But it's really important that mediators look at the ethical obligations that we have and you can very successfully build and market your business within the ethical obligations, but don't go beyond that. Or, if you're unsure, if something's okay, contact your professional association, talk it through. Um, yeah, so that one of the things I do is is to handle complaints so and and those sorts of situations.
28:56
I've had a few complaints about that, where clients have felt railroaded, okay yeah, but on the positive side it's really, I think, making use of the technology that's now available. Um ai has been an extraordinary. I've never seen the exponential growth of a new technology, the way that AI has.
29:19 - Sylvia (Host)
Absolutely, and what are your thoughts on that, Like how you know, in the mediation space using AI? Are there any recommendations or some key things that you think mediators should be doing with?
29:31 - Joanne (Guest)
AI. I've been using it in training. It writes role play scenarios better than I do and it takes guidance extremely well, so you know what you put in and you say, okay, well, I need this and I need that and it'll revise. I'm just using Copilot, which is Copilot Pro, which is the Microsoft AI tool. There's others even more advanced. I'm really looking forward to the day when I can have AI avatars participating in our role play.
30:04
Yes, we're going to be a year away at the most from where things are going. I think that there could be some real advantages in education. I think that there could be some real advantages in education. We need to not become obsolete, which is the real fear with AI. We need to remember and keep highlighting it's the humanity of the process of mediation that is the magic, and so we need to not be transactional around what we do. We need to be really working to try and make mediation as powerful as it can be in helping people to resolve the immediate issues but also improve their future. Situation, which is a very exciting update. There's also a new course that we'll be implementing shortly. Situation, which is a very exciting update. There's also a new course that we'll be implementing shortly. It's called a practicum and it's for experienced mediators. It's more or less a reflective practice program that allows them to demonstrate the knowledge and depth of knowledge to be recognized as an advanced mediator rather than an accredited mediator. So that's really exciting.
31:20 - Sylvia (Host)
Fabulous.
31:21 - Joanne (Guest)
On working on that at the moment and really looking forward to that, and what we're planning is to partner with some of our more experienced members for them to be able to run in-person practicums around the country in their local areas, which again is going to be another way for them to raise their profile as experienced and proficient. Just a bit resolution professional.
31:44 - Sylvia (Host)
But that's exciting. Yeah, we'll definitely have to add a link to the show notes for that, because I think people will be very interested in learning more about that particular program that you've just made reference to. So, in terms of any upcoming well, I think you shared with us some upcoming initiatives that you're really excited about, so I'm thrilled to hear that there's some interesting courses that are coming up that your students or people that are listening may want to look into further. Any other advice that you'd like to share with our listeners today?
32:20 - Joanne (Guest)
I'm very big on connecting and being part of, I suppose, being a leader in our sector. The other organization I'm part of is Mediators Beyond Borders Oceania, which is an offshore shooter, mediators Beyond Borders International. So, as far as connecting for those in the US, mediators Beyond Borders International is a fabulous organisation to be part of as a dispute resolution professional and they have a number of different working groups based on your particular area of interest. So I'm doing a lot of early meetings with the climate change and environmental group there, if that's something that you're interested in. But with Oceania, I'm leading a group on experiential learning.
33:05
So we're looking at highlighting exploring programs or people that have made real change within their communities, and the first one we're going to do is with Heng Lin, who's a mediator that was at the Dispute Settlement Centre and really led a transformation within his community from an area that was in deep conflict between the police, the traders and the local Aboriginal people for that area, and last year it was voted or identified as the coolest street in the world.
33:43
So it's peacemaking rather than straight mediation, but that's within our remit. You're bringing fees, but ultimately advice for mediators, experienced or not, but ultimately advice for mediators, experienced or not. If you don't have enough business, then learn more about how to promote yourself, how to market your business. Don't think that it is something that you're not interested, you don't want to know about, because marketing is the only way we can help people to understand what we do and whether we're going to be able to fit for them Absolutely, and on that point, you and I have joined forces to host a marketing workshop to your network of mediators, and that's up and coming in September, so I'm looking forward to that.
34:36 - Sylvia (Host)
We'll be talking a little bit about how to grow your practice and build their thought leadership, so that's certainly exciting and that's another great way to spread the word.
34:45 - Joanne (Guest)
Absolutely, and look, just a full disclosure for everyone. I reached out to you, sylvia, because we have worked before together and I know that the way that you support people to learn to market is really congruent and really very much around that educating you know, building your profile and, you know, being authentic. I guess we get less resistance from people with some of the approaches that you've got, because they'll often struggle to. You don't have to be a rah-rah marketer. That's sometimes where the rejection comes. So what you've got to share is really valuable, I think and, yeah, for that reason I'm excited about our upcoming yeah, so am I.
35:29 - Sylvia (Host)
I'm looking forward to that. Thank you, Joanne, for your brilliance, for your wisdom, for sharing this with our audience. I know our listeners are going to find this episode so valuable and inspirational.
35:42 - Joanne (Guest)
Thank you so much for the opportunity. It's been a pleasure.
