Serve First, Sell Later Marketing
Serve First, Sell Later Marketing
#78 Launch a Book & Brand That Changes Lives – with Karen Goslin
In episode 78 of the Serve First, Sell Later Marketing podcast, host Sylvia interviews Karen Goslin, a seasoned therapist, speaker, and author of the transformative book, 'Yellow Paint: Learning to Live Again.' Karen shares profound insights into the world of accountable therapy, illustrating how personal issues can become opportunities for growth. The episode also delves into the strategic marketing plan behind the book, including the grand launch at the Oscars and ongoing promotional efforts. Karen discusses the multi-faceted approach to expanding her brand, from speaking engagements to creating multiple revenue streams. This episode is packed with valuable strategies and inspiration for anyone interested in writing a book, building a personal brand, or expanding their services. A must-listen!
In this episode you will learn:
- 03:02 Karen's Journey: From Therapist to Author
- 04:43 Core Messages of 'Yellow Paint'
- 10:04 Understanding and Overcoming Core Wounds
- 15:04 The Book Launch: Strategies and Challenges
- 29:05 Marketing Insights: Consistency and Credibility
- 31:54 Expanding Services and Revenue Streams
Resources:
- Yellow Paint Website
- Buy Karen's book Yellow Paint
- Book a call with Karen
- Karen Goslin & Associates
- Connect with Karen on Linkedin
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00:00 - Karen (Guest)
Unless you're like Oprah Winfrey or Mel Robbins that are probably making millions of dollars, the average author will not get rich by writing a book, and so it is about launching your business in a different way. So we created a different website for the book Karen Gosling Speaks, and some people could have maybe integrated it into their current website. My marketing team decided to keep KG and Associates separate and to launch Karen Gosselin Speaks, and that again was part of a specific marketing plan to start building a speaking career.
00:39 - Sylvia (Host)
Hello everyone and welcome back to Episode 77 of the Serve First, sell Later Marketing Podcast. Today's guest is someone whose work, story and strategy I truly admire Karen Goslin. So Karen is a seasoned therapist, speaker and now the author of Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again, which is a powerful and deeply personal book that introduces readers to the concept of accountable therapy. But what I loved most about this interview wasn't just the message in the book, it was the marketing brilliance behind it. So, if you're thinking about writing a book, building a personal brand or expanding your services beyond one-to-one work, this episode is packed with marketing insights, strategy and inspiration. Karen shares how she turned a deeply personal project into a full-blown brand, launching yellow paint at none other than the Oscars in 2025, and so so much more.
01:43
Let's dive in. Welcome, karen, so excited to have you on the show today and, first off, thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with our listeners. And I know that you are a highly respected and experienced therapist who truly makes a difference in the lives of so many people, and you really are an inspiration. And you're also the author of the powerful and transformative book which is called Yellow Paint Learning to Live Again, which you just published, which is a brilliant book, and I just love the way it takes your personal story as a therapist to help explain the power of accountable therapy. So, first off, congratulations, because I know that this has been a very important project for you.
02:31 - Karen (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me, sylvia. I've known you for years and you've been a great inspiration to me as well. I think you're featured in the book because part of leveling up included redesigning how I did my business. But what a great introduction and thank you for having me, and I would love to talk to you about this book and everything that happened leading up to it and what's coming down the pipes as a result of it. So thanks again.
02:59 - Sylvia (Host)
Awesome. Well, thank you, I'm honored. So, before we dive into the marketing and the PR stuff of writing and launching a book, which I know is a big initiative, I have to ask what was the driving force or the aha moment that led you to write Yellow Paint?
03:18 - Karen (Guest)
Great.
03:19
Well, that's a great question, so I would just say it like this For many years I felt compelled to write the book.
03:27
I felt like I had a message. I would and as part of the accountable therapy hear clients coming back and telling me stories about decisions they were making whether it was with education or career or relationships that was also making a difference. And then sometimes I hear from clients like years later they'll email me or call me like I got engaged or I got divorced or I moved. Like I got engaged or I got divorced or I moved or I left that job or I got a promotion. And so this was like just feeding my passion even more for the work that I do. And I just felt compelled to write the book because I thought I knew what happened to me in my own life. I knew what was happening in my clients' lives and I just felt compelled to make the message even bigger and maybe have readers read the book and understand the concepts people I may never meet, but I just knew that the message was worth broadcasting to a larger audience.
04:40 - Sylvia (Host)
And such an important message at that, for sure. And so I think, without giving away everything in the book, what is the core message that you hope readers can take away from Yellow Paint?
04:52 - Karen (Guest)
Yeah, so one of the core messages is about this idea of invitations to grow, this idea that as humans, we often want change and need change and turn around and get in our way of the very change we're looking for. And this is a shared human experience and we will keep coming back to the same like quote unquote problem, different content, different details, but same patterns, and waking up to the patterns and understanding why we keep getting in our own way and what to do about it. Right, because we will have increasingly bigger issues and when we understand that that's what's happening and why the wake up is possible. So problems and crises are actually invitations to grow. The universe is trying to tell us something. The idea is that when we have had imperfect histories as children, growing up, children, teenagers, young adults we will internalize wounding core beliefs, so beliefs either about ourself, others, life and love, like I'm not enough or others are out to hurt me, or love isn't possible. So when we carry those wounding core beliefs, we will apply it to current situations and it will sabotage us and we will keep doing it in similar ways again and again and again. So the premise is don't resent the problems, understand the meaning of the problems, understand that the problems are invitations to grow, invitations to grow, and so I wanted to illuminate this for the reader, because once we can understand the patterns and where they're coming from, we can begin to figure out what to do about it. So that was really the first premise, because for me, yellow paint was my what I called the seventh invitation to grow, that when I mapped out my own life, I'm like, everything led me to my rock bottom moment. And and I'm no different than anybody else we all have these patterns, we all are carrying these core beliefs that aren't working for us, and everything will keep getting louder and more serious. And for me, the wake up came with yellow paint.
07:28
But the second big premise really of the book is about the accountable therapy, because when I looked at what was working for my clients and what had worked for me, I knew that there was a specific way that therapy could be provided that not only helped people wake up to these invitations to grow, you know, because knowledge is power. Understanding and connecting all of that Okay, but now what? And then? Now what is where accountable therapy, I think, really thrives, because it isn't just understanding and being aware, it's about knowing what strategies and tools to use to capitalize on this wake up moment so that we have less likely a chance to kind of continue the negative patterns and to actually what I often say to clients is flip it on its back and instead of having more problems you're actually growing. And how are you going to do that?
08:30
So the book really relies heavily on those two premises, and so then I share my own journey of my invitations to grow and how I kept getting in my own way. I carried core wounds around control and self-worth, but there's many different types of wounds, so I share my own pathway through that and invite the reader to do the same. And then the other part of the book is really about the accountable therapy methods and how I apply that in my own life, how my clients apply it, and again invites the reader to looking specifically at some strategies and tools that they could use.
09:12 - Sylvia (Host)
Oh, I love that. Yeah, and so you made mention of creating awareness of the pattern first and then moving to an action plan or solution on how to address that, and I know the book does that brilliantly in helping people identify. Hey, these are some of the patterns and these are some of the things people can do. So if you had to look at the most pressing patterns like, what would you say are some of the most pressing patterns that you see amongst people, All of us? Is there one or two key patterns that keep identifying themselves, especially in your practice when you start working with people?
10:21 - Karen (Guest)
intimacy. These are the emotional developmental stage that as humans, we generally feel better when we gain some mastery over those stages, and everybody has their own combination of what's happened in their life, that kind of dictate, which of those stages they had the most trouble with. But none of us have perfect lives, so we all have our own kind of combination. Probably one of the most common ones, I see, is how people stumble over the worthiness stage, because we will usually receive some negative feedback, some rejections, some criticisms and, depending on how well we've done on our preceding stages, most of us, you know, want to be liked by others, want to be accepted, want to feel good enough, right, but we will usually experience some imperfection with that, and that easily creates a worthiness wound, and so we will internalize a belief that somehow we're not good enough.
11:29
Now here's where it gets a little interesting, because people will carry a not good enough wound and, depending on what was modeled for them or their preceding years, they will either ride the aggressive side of the wound or the passive side of the wound. So people who carry the passive side of unworthiness may underachieve, may not take risks, may not be assertive in their life, will almost dumb it down, underperform because they're carrying it in a passive way. You can have the exact same wound but ride the aggressive side, and aggressors who don't feel good enough will show narcissistic traits, will try too hard, will overwork, overdo, overpush to aggressively seek out some confirmation that could they be good enough, right. Either side of the wound will sabotage because the passive side will run the risk of never finding out their good enoughness because they aren't getting themselves in the ring enough, you know. Aggressive side of the wound people will push people away and they'll be like Whoa, you're too much, you know, back off and there will be further rejection for that person because they will push people away.
12:53
So they run the risk of never discovering their own good enoughness from the other side. And so these are very common patterns I see. So my job is to not only help people understand what wound they're carrying and what side of the wound they're on, and I help them see how they're actually going about it in ways that they think is doing the best they can but is actually getting in their own way, think is doing the best they can but is actually getting in their own way. And then the accountable therapy methods help not only create a very clear formulation to explain how they got there, but then what to actually do about it.
13:30 - Sylvia (Host)
Yeah, and I love this. I'm so glad that that one came up like worthiness Am I worthy of this? Because that is something that comes up consistently in marketing of professional services. So so many of the clients that we work with have this I don't know if it's lack of confidence in themselves or lack of, you know, worthiness to put themselves out there and market themselves, and so there's a lot of resistance about putting themselves out there and saying, well, who am I to say that I'm a great professional at helping people reach an option or a way to divorce peacefully without the court system, for example, if we're looking at divorce mediators. So that worthiness pops up in marketing all the time and I would say a really big issue that a lot of professionals face when it's time for them to market their practices. So it's really interesting that you bring that one up.
14:22 - Karen (Guest)
Yeah, that makes total sense to me, because when you master the worthiness wound, you discover your good enoughness and you're not as reliant on what other people think, because we've altered our relationship with ourself where, despite the response we get, we feel good enough as we are, and it doesn't mean that we don't care what people think. But what people think of us isn't going to determine whether we feel good enough or not.
14:53 - Sylvia (Host)
Oh, love that. Yeah, that's so well said. Absolutely so writing the book. I guess it's a long process, getting the book written and edited, and I think launching it is a whole other beast, and so some of our listeners could be interested in getting their first book published. So I'm wondering if you could walk us through some of the initial steps of, you know, marketing the book or getting it set up to launch, and then we can kind of maybe move in into the ongoing promotional plan. But for now maybe we can start with what the launch process looks like, if that's OK.
15:32 - Karen (Guest)
Absolutely. I mean it's kind of like raising a baby. You know somebody said having a baby. You know it's like it's a lot of hard work. I highly recommend it, even if you don't publish it, because finding like journaling or documenting what you've created in your career and the knowledge you have and the expertise you know, it's so worth documenting in one way or another.
16:00
And for me, you know, as we were closing in towards the final editing process, the team changed a lot. The savviness that's required a little bit in your business sense of who are you going to get behind you, you know, to actually like, believe in this project and promote the product. So in the final phases of editing, I changed my team again and that brought on new editors and and a company that promotes indie authors right, self-publishing. The publishing world is, as I'm new to, this industry has understandably gone through a lot of changes with digital copies and audio books and, as far as I understand right, the industry is just getting flooded right with people who are publishing for the very first time and it's exciting right. And I'm assuming you know the industry is going through all of these growing pains. So I think there are some bumps that your listeners could expect to have. But it's like if you believe in what you're producing. It's like where there's a will, there's a way.
17:09
As I was coming into the final stages of editing, I hired a company who had that experience and built a team around me and that was like this one-stop shopping that gave me new developmental editors, a PR team, you know now an audio book production team. You know it really takes a village to pull this off the expertise that's required in actually like printing, publishing, promoting, editing, proofreading. I mean, you know we had at least 10 people on the team, but it was needed, because there are people that have expertise in very specific areas, to get it off the ground. So part of the promotion ended up being bringing on the publisher and the PR team to actually figure out what our strategy was going to be to get it out to the audience that I knew could benefit so much from reading the book or listening to the book.
18:15 - Sylvia (Host)
Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head when you said that there's so many different ways to publish a book based on audio, digital, and there's just so many different things coming out. And then AI is another tool just to add in the mix. Right, so there are many different ways to publish a book, especially those that are first starting out, but what would you say was the most surprising or challenging aspect of getting the book on the road to promotion?
18:45 - Karen (Guest)
Yeah, Well, for me the editing process was very challenging and it's somebody said to me once through the process she said he said it's like it's like giving away cute puppies right, because it's easy to get, to delete and get rid of the material that isn't serving the manuscript but to let go of some kernels that you really like, wanted to have in there. But they said, yeah, it's like giving a cute puppy away and you have to trust the team that's behind you because there's gold nuggets but you can't overwhelm the reader. You can't, you know, confuse the reader. And then people would say save that for a second book. Like, yes, we like it, yes, it's valuable. And then people would say save that for a second book. Like, yes, we like it, yes, it's valuable, it just doesn't fit. So having a team you trust is key and for me that was hard because I would say, but this is so important. They said it is, it just doesn't fit.
19:46
When we brought on the PR team, this was about figuring out how to launch this, because we wanted to do some in-person events, we wanted to do some virtual events and the world is obviously still changing in that way as well. The PR I brought on through the company that was helping me publish the book. She had connections and people who've been in the field a long time for event planning, for public relations. You know you bring on experts who already have all of those connections. So the that's where the opportunity came to go to the Oscars. I didn't even believe it at first.
20:30 - Sylvia (Host)
Oh, we have to talk about this. I'm super excited about that. Let's let's tell the listeners about the Oscar launch.
20:36 - Karen (Guest)
I think that's because we were heading into lining up you know, podcasts, like I'm doing with you today, a lot of virtual events, speaking engagements, get the word out and we were just we were going to do like a local party you know to, to at least have one in-person event at least, to like be present and invite people to a party. And then this PR company that I brought on had connections. So these there's gifting lounges at these massive events, right, they're all you know. Know, conferences happen and getting a booth. That's obviously been around for a long time. But as the world keeps evolving, these big entertainment events have these gifting lounges and uh, and so people are running these lounges and this is where my PR was connected.
21:31
So in the end, we ended up producing, you know, I don't know if you remember, over Christmas, the Stanley Cup was such a popular gift, so we created a yellow paint Karen Gosling speaks Stanley Cup and it was just about trying to figure out what's popular, what's trending, what is different, right, what would build on the concept of the book. So that started a whole new strategy. So we delayed the in-person local party. This was a much bigger in-person event that had a perfect audience, and people running these gifting lounges have a huge social media platform already running. So you pay to show up at these places but the massive social media content is worth it.
22:43
So we took a look at getting the books there. We looked at what merchandise would be a great offshoot, building on the popularity of the Stanley Cup. You know, we looked at what was happening in Los Angeles at the time so we gave proceeds to the fire relief in LA to just broaden our message that we were there. We believed we deserved to be there. We had a message, an important message to share, while also taking into account what was happening in the community. So that ended up being our launch, because that was my very first in-person event on yellow paint and it was just the timing and the connections and the team I had built to back yellow paint and everything kind of started blossoming from there. The slogan we kept with was like yellow paint splashes the red carpet. You know, love that.
23:38 - Sylvia (Host)
Yeah.
23:39 - Karen (Guest)
My social media marketers literally built campaigns with red carpets splashed with yellow paint, but we connected. You know the hard work of people in the entertainment industry, so it wasn't just about the, about what happens when you put in hard work and dedicate to your mission like actors and writers and producers do. That was part of the bigger message of Yellow Paint of how hard work pays off and dedication. But it was also about the fact that in some ways, we're all telling stories, right. It's the human condition and passion to share our stories, to make sense of our lives. And also was a great mirroring to our message in yellow paint of like, not just because it's a book, it told a story Like, not just because it's a book, it told a story, but it told the story of my life. It told the story of like, what humans share and what they come up against in their lives, and giving hope and direction for what to do. So in some ways it was a perfect match to be down there and I couldn't have been prouder like, because then I kind of got my head out of the editing, which was refreshing for me and just connecting with people, and so for me I was really happy to be there because people seem to really connect with the accountable therapy message.
25:07
They loved the branding of the yellow paint and sometimes what I say is like I don't have butterflies and dandelions on my website, you know, because therapeutic conversations are not meant to float away, they're meant to land somewhere specifically understanding people got because, of course, the cover is like, of this black background with this like yellow paint roller going across.
25:37
It's very bold, very dramatic, right. So when we were there with the cover, with the cups, with our booth and talking about accountable therapy and I know for your listeners this will make sense to have some kind of consistent brand or message that really represents the message you're trying to put out there. And when I saw it all clicking and people getting it because they could see we had like yellow fabric streaming out of a paint can onto our booth, they could see the cover of the book and then they're like what is this all about? And they could begin to hear my message about the boldness and the therapy method. So that consistent branding and messaging started to really resonate for people who were hearing it for the first time. And this is important because you know there's focus groups on on book covers. I mean people research the heck out of this.
26:37 - Sylvia (Host)
So every step matters because of that consistent message and branding and that's what people will remember right, absolutely, and the brand was so well done that it stands out, it gets people's attention and then the messaging resonates with that. So I thought that that was so well done and what an amazing experience that must have been to launch your very first book at the Oscars in 2025. Like, how many people can say they've done that Right? I mean just tremendous, tremendous work and, as you said, a feeling of accomplishment. But for our listeners, this is another tool like gifting lounges, as you've identified, at something like the Oscars and and my understanding is that something's coming up at the Emmys as well Right?
27:27 - Karen (Guest)
Being an author for the first time, I feel like you have to, like, put everything out there at once. We got the Kindle, the hardcover, the paperback, the audio book, and actually what I learned and might be of interest to your listeners is that it is actually better to put pieces out there but then to keep coming with other pieces. Right, and probably in your work you see this as well. But it's like I was like pushing the team going when are we doing this audio book? Like we got to get that going. And then it was only until, like, the team that was publishing said, no, we stagger it, you stagger it to keep. So what ended up happening now is we've got, we're going to be going into production of the audiobook in July and have it ready to launch at the Emmys in September.
28:17
And this is part of the marketing plan, because it's not like, okay, that book that came out in February, you know, okay, great, it was at the Oscars and that's all folks. Right, it's like no, we keep coming right. So now we're producing the audiobook. Right, it's like, nope, we keep coming right. So now we're producing the audio book. Now I'm producing a yellow paint e-therapy program with a downloadable workbook. You know that's going to come out by the end of the year, so part of the plan is to kind of keep it fresh, keep it new, keep expanding the message, expanding your products. So for me, like the book was the beginning right, Not the end.
28:54 - Sylvia (Host)
Right, yeah, I love that, and the consistency around dropping the marketing messages ongoing so that the book stays alive, the message stays alive, and so we talk about this a lot. That consistency and marketing is really the key to success, and I know it's a difficult one for people to understand because they think they can just get it out there once and just wait for things to happen. For me, the key word or the buzzword, is consistency, and if you can develop that consistency, that's where you're going to see the results. And so, speaking of results, you and I have talked about this before and you know, for most of us publishing a book you don't get rich in publishing a book, but I think the opportunity lays in what you can do with the book to sell other products or services, and I know that you have lined this up quite nicely, so I'd like to share with the listeners as well, like what else can happen from a book that's actually a moneymaker, that's going to bring in revenue. So maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
29:55 - Karen (Guest)
Yeah, you're right, because as exciting as everything I'm just describing, and for me it was also just, like you know, my own sense of pride in documenting the work that I was doing. So how do you put a price on that? But it's incredible. How do you put a price on that? But it's incredible, unless you're like Oprah Winfrey or Mel Robbins that are probably making millions of dollars, the average author will not get rich by writing a book, and so it is about launching your business in a different way. So we created a different website for the book Karen Gosselin Speaks, and some people could have maybe integrated it into their current website.
30:36
My marketing team decided to keep KG and Associates separate and to launch Karen Gosselin Speaks, and that again was part of a specific marketing plan to start building a speaking career. Start building a speaking career. So from the book came not only podcasts, you know selling other products, like the e-therapy program, like the workbooks. We put out a teaser, so multi-level products in different capacities at different price points, like our teaser was like, I don't know, like $9.99. You know, our e-therapy program will probably be like $19.99. So it's offering the consumer different products in different ways at different price points. So we're looking at all different layers around speaking opportunities, the downloadable products, the virtual products, you know, and we keep building from there.
31:36 - Sylvia (Host)
Yeah, absolutely. I love that and I love the way your team has created this strategy behind that. And so speaking engagements, writing a book all of these things build credibility as a professional, and I think that's what helps us sell the other services. And one of the services I want to talk about that I think some of our listeners might find very interesting is the teaching of accountable therapy for lawyers, and how you're going in and teaching lawyers how to do this, dr Anneke.
32:09 - Karen (Guest)
Vandenbroek Right, I mean, I was just about to use the word credibility as well, because what I'm understanding, what we're doing really right now, is we had to create buzz around the book first, right, because it's like what is this Yellow paint, what is this? So we had to create the interest and the buzz first as a speaker, because it's not just the credibility of the accountable therapy expertise, but it's like trying to build an offshoot to my career and including it as a speaker and so going out into the community either virtually or in person, because there's many different interest groups that would benefit from knowing how accountable therapy works. For divorce lawyers. I did this a couple of weeks ago. It was giving very key information about the divorce process and what happens emotionally and mentally for their clients at any stage of that process and how they fit into that. So it's building a team for lawyers, having community of accountable therapists that they can rely on to help their clients. I mean, accountable therapy really is for anybody. So I could talk to parenting groups, you know. I could talk to people who are interested about what to do with a depression or anxiety. So, professionally, the lawyers are helped because it builds context around what their clients are going through. It gives them a referral base and they might even begin to talk to their clients differently.
33:50
Here's a great example. So a lot of what is happening currently in the divorce field is parent alienation, and the Divorce Act has come in in Canada in the last couple of years to try and break through some of these weaponizing of the grief and parent alienation is one of those right. So if my grief is not grounded over the loss of my marriage, acting out grief is a pretty, you know, risky, dangerous game to play and sometimes the biggest victims are the children. So accountable therapy talks about how to ground the grief and because when grief is grounded I can come into the legal process a lot clearer. I don't have to weaponize my ex, I don't have to use my children to do that. I don't have to fight about money and time, because grounding the grief allows me to accept the loss and grow from the loss those invitations to grow we were talking about earlier.
35:01
And this frees the lawyers up Because if their client has their grief grounded, we can tackle things a whole lot easier. It's a complicated thing to do but it's possible and I did it in my own life, going through my own divorce that I share in the book and I talk about how the accountable therapy works for this. So lawyers have clients. If their grief is grounded, we can get down to business a lot easier. They're not shaming themselves, they're not blaming their ex-partner. It's a cleaner process, so the whole system benefits right. So this was part of what I shared with the lawyers a couple of weeks ago.
35:46 - Sylvia (Host)
Yeah, I love that. And for any of our listeners, if you're in the legal or mediation or collaborative law areas, please reach out to Karen because she can certainly help in this area to assist in the process. Right, making the process easier for lawyers, mediators, divorce professionals is so important so that they can better serve their clients. And so you know, this is another offshoot of the book, another level of service. So I love the way this has all been pulled together to not only build your credibility, be seen as an expert and a speaker and when I say to someone, oh, to be seen as an expert, I don't mean it as an insult, because I know you are already an expert, right, but it's like getting the world to see you as an expert. That's what marketing is all about, you know, is getting the name out there, building credibility, especially for service-based professionals who are our audience here on the Serve First, sell Later marketing podcast. So any parting thoughts, karen?
36:50 - Karen (Guest)
Wow, that's a big question. It's a loaded one.
37:16
Wow, that's a big question. It's a loaded one. Yeah, I guess you know. First and foremost want to put the yellow paint message out there. I want people to know that there's a direction through their pain, that they don't have to keep going in circles, that there is something within those circles that are trying to tell them something, and that therapy should give them specific directions. I always say people should know what they're going to be doing differently tomorrow morning when they wake up, and that's when I believe therapy is most effective. We will feel better from a good therapeutic conversation. But what will make the most sense and be most helpful is that I don't just feel good having the conversation, that. It actually gave me a specific, different idea of what to do differently in my life. So first and foremost, you know I want to keep sharing that message.
37:51
Second of all, you know the importance of documenting your expertise and knowing that you have something valuable to share to the world. And if you're thinking of doing a book, get a team behind you that you trust, because of the complexities of that industry, to actually get the book out there. And have a team behind you that can create the buzz you know, build the credibility and then launch other products to create more revenue, to to keep building on the products and expanding the products and, yes, as you said, the consistency and the branding through all of that. You know it's like the brain behind it to know what you're putting out there and why and what need this serves in the community.
38:49 - Sylvia (Host)
I love that. Wow. Thank you, karen. Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing such incredible insights, and I know our listeners will find the episode so valuable and inspirational and, of course, they're going to want to get their hands on Yellow Paint, and so I encourage our listeners to check out the book, buy the book. We're going to put all the links in the show notes. You can reach out to Karen as well. All of that will be listed there. I know the book is absolutely brilliant and I can't wait to finish reading it. I've learned so much so far. So thank you again, karen, for being part of the show.
39:26 - Karen (Guest)
Great. Thanks so much for having me, Sylvia. Thank you.